>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> IF THEY DON'T DISARM, WE WILL DISARM THEM, AND IT WILL HAPPEN QUICKLY AND PERHAPS VIOLENTLY.

>> AS THE GAZA CEASE-FIRE AGREEMENT MOVES TO PHASE TWO, THERE'S ALREADY A HOLD UP ON PHASE ONE.

ISRAEL SLOWS AID DELIVERIES AFTER HAMAS FAILS TO RELEASE THE BODIES OF ALL DECEASED HOSTAGES.

SO WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?

I ASKED THE EGYPTIAN FOREIGN MINISTER, A CENTRAL PLAYER IN THE NEGOTIATIONS.

THEN WE HEAR DIRECTLY FROM MARIA MACHADO, THE VENEZUELA OPPOSITION LEADER, WHO WON THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE ABOUT BRINGING DEMOCRACY AS AMERICAN FORCES GATHER AGAINST HER COUNTRY.

AND.

>> AMERICA IS A WONDERFUL COUNTRY, A WONDERFUL EXPERIMENT THAT SOMETIMES IT'S MADE BAD MISTAKES.

>> WALTER ISAACSON SPEAKS WITH THE EDITOR OF THE ATLANTIC ABOUT AMERICA'S OWN UNFINISHED REVOLUTION.

>>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUSS.

THE THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

DONALD TRUMP DECLARED THAT PHASE TWO OF THE GAZA CEASE- FIRE HAS BEGUN, WHICH CALLS FOR THE ESTABLISHMENT OF AN INTERIM GOVERNMENT IN GAZA AND FOR THE FORMATION OF A MULTI-NATIONAL SECURITY FORCE.

BUT TRUMP ACKNOWLEDGES THAT, QUOTE, THE JOB IS NOT DONE ON PHASE ONE.

AFTER HAMAS MISSED THE 72-HOUR DEADLINE FOR HANDING OVER THE BODIES OF ALL REMAINING HOSTAGES, ISRAEL RESPONDED BY REDUCING THE HUMANITARIAN AID ALLOWED INTO GAZA.

FOR NOW, THE CEASE-FIRE IS HOLDING.

BUT THE U.N.

REPORTS THAT THE ISRAELI MILITARY CONTINUES TO KILL CIVILIANS AROUND THE AREAS TO WHICH IT HAS REDEPLOYED IN GAZA.

AND HAMAS IS REASSERTING ITS CONTROL IN AREAS WHERE ISRAEL HAS PULLED BACK, AS NEGOTIATIONS CONTINUE IN EGYPT, KEY QUESTIONS ARE STILL UNANSWERED.

WILL HAMAS DISARM?

WILL THIS DEAL LEAD TO A AND THE PALESTINIANS?

EGYPT IS PLAYING A MAJOR ROLE IN HELPING TO SECURE AND STABILIZE GAZA, AND I SPOKE ABOUT ALL OF THIS WITH THE FOREIGN MINISTER.

>> FOREIGN MINISTER ABDULATTI, WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HOSTING ME.

>> FOREIGN MINISTER, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS SO MUCH HOPE AND EXCITEMENT OVER THE CEASE-FIRE, AND YOU ALL WORKED VERY HARD TO BRING IT.

BUT IT SEEMS TO BE HITTING SOME SNAGS ALREADY.

CAN YOU GIVE US AN UPDATE?

BECAUSE I THINK THE RAFAH CROSSING, WHICH IS BETWEEN YOU AND THE GAZA STRIP, FOR AID MAY NOT YET BE OPEN.

THE ISRAELIS SAY THAT THE HAMAS HAVE NOT RELEASED ALL THE DECEASED, YOU KNOW, THE REMAINS OF THE HOSTAGES THAT THEY MUST.

CAN YOU TELL US WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN AND WHAT'S THE SITUATION?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, WE ARE EXTREMELY HAPPY WITH WHAT HAPPENED OVER THE LAST FEW DAYS WITH THE AMERICAN LEADERSHIP WITH THE DIRECT INVOLVEMENT OF PRESIDENT TRUMP.

WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO REACH THIS AGREEMENT, AND TWO DAYS AGO PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS THERE WITH LEADERS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD IN THE CITY OF PEACE, AND IT WAS A BIG EVENT, A BIG CELEBRATION, AND MEDIATORS SIGNED IMPORTANT DOCUMENT FOR ENDING THE WAR IN GAZA.

WE ARE NOW IN THE PROCESS OF IMPLEMENTING FIRST PHASE OF THE AGREEMENT, AND THEN WE HAVE TO START NEGOTIATING ON THE SECOND PHASE.

FOR PHASE ONE, I MEAN, THINGS ARE MOVING WELL, ESPECIALLY WITH REGARD TO THE RELEASE OF ALL HOSTAGES.

AS YOU KNOW AND WE TOLD THE AMERICAN SIDE THAT AS FOR THE REMAINS OF THE BODIES, I MEAN, THAT COLLECTING THE REMAINS WILL TAKE SOME TIME BECAUSE THEY ARE UNDER RUBBLES, AND YOU HAVE A LOT OF EXPLOSIVE MATERIALS, DEVICES UNDER THE RUBBLE.

SO REACHING THEM WILL BE A BIT DIFFICULT, BUT WE ARE DOING OUR UTMOST EFFORTS ON THE GROUND IN ORDER TO COLLECT THE DECEASED BODIES AND TO HAND THEM OVER TO THE ISRAELI SIDE IN IMPLEMENTATION OF THE AGREEMENT OF SHERMAN SHAKE PHASE ONE.

BUT WE ARE EXPECTING, OF COURSE, THE FLOW OF HUMANITARIAN AID THERE INTO GAZA, OPENING OF THE CROSSINGS AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, AND THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT.

AND THEN TO FOCUS ON THE SECOND PHASE, WHICH WILL NOT BE EASY.

IT WILL BE DIFFICULT.

COMMITMENT, WITH THE INVOLVEMENT OF PRESIDENT TRUMP AND THE UNITED STATES, WITH THE INTEREST OF THE INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION, I BELIEVE THAT WE CAN REACH ANOTHER AGREEMENT ON PHASE TWO, AND THEN CLEAR THE WAY FORWARD FOR A FINAL CONCLUSION TO THIS CONFLICT.

THE PALESTINIAN PROBLEM, WHICH IS CONSIDERED THE CORE OF THE CONFLICT IN OUR REGION.

>> EXACTLY.

MR.

FOREIGN MINISTER, HAVE YOU GOT ASSURANCES FROM ISRAEL THAT THEY UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'VE JUST SAID?

THAT THIS MIGHT TAKE SOME TIME.

BECAUSE WE'RE GETTING SOME QUITE STRONG DEMANDS FROM AN UNHAPPY ISRAEL THAT THE BODIES HAVE NOT YET BEEN RETURNED IN TOTALITY, AND ALSO DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE RAFAH CROSSING WILL BE OPEN TOMORROW?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I MEAN, WE HAVE DAILY CHANNELS COMMUNICATION WITH THE ISRAELIS AND WE ARE INFORMING THEM.

SECONDLY, DURING THE MEETING BETWEEN THE PRESIDENT OF THE AZIZI AND PRESIDENT TRUMP IN SHERMAN SHAKE THE DAY BEFORE, WE CONVEYED THE SAME MESSAGE.

PRESIDENT CICI SPOKE VERY OPENLY THAT THERE ARE SOME IMPEDIMENTS ON THE GROUND, AND WE NEED TO DO EXTRA EFFORTS TO AND TO DISCOVER COLLECT THE REMAINS OF THE BODIES IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO RETURN BACK TO THEM, TO THE ISRAELI SIDE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE BECAUSE THIS IS A PART OF THE DEAL, OF COURSE.

AS FAR THE OPENING OF THE RAFAH CROSSING, AS WE ALWAYS SAYING, IT'S OPEN FROM THE EGYPTIAN SIDE 24/7.

AND WE ARE WORKING WITH ISRAELIS TO OPEN THEIR CROSSINGS ALSO WITH GAZA AND TO ALLOW THE FLOW OF MATERIALS, HUMANITARIAN AID, MEDICAL AID BECAUSE THE SITUATION ON THE GROUND IS CATASTROPHIC.

AND WE NEED LITERALLY, LITERALLY TO FLOOD GAZA WITH FOOD AND WITH RELIEF AND MATERIALS AND THE MEDICAL EQUIPMENTS AND THE MATERIALS, OF COURSE.

>> FOREIGN MINISTER, BECAUSE IT'S ALL SO NEW, EVERYONE'S LOOKING AT WHAT'S HAPPENING ON THE GROUND.

SO PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID IN FRONT OF ALL OF YOU, I BELIEVE, OR IN PUBLIC THAT THEY WOULD ALLOW HAMAS TO ESSENTIALLY POLICE THE SITUATION ON THE GROUND FOR A PERIOD OF TIME.

UNTIL I SUPPOSE THERE'S ANOTHER, ANOTHER POLICE FORCE THAT STOOD UP OR A STABILIZATION FORCE.

IN THE MEANTIME, PICTURES HAVE EMERGED OF HAMAS ESSENTIALLY EXECUTING CERTAIN PEOPLE ON THE GROUND.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT'S ALL ABOUT?

AND DO YOU THINK HAMAS WILL SEIZE THE OPPORTUNITY TO STAY AS THE DE FACTO ARMED FORCE THERE?

BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T BEEN DISARMED.

PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYS THEY MUST BE DISARMED AND IF THEY'RE NOT, THEY'LL BE FORCIBLY DISARMED.

WHERE DO YOU SEE THAT?

>> WELL, TWO ISSUES HERE.

NUMBER ONE, THE ISSUE OF SECURITY ARRANGEMENT.

AND WE ARE WORKING VERY HARD ON THAT BY PROVIDING TRAINING TO THE PALESTINIAN POLICE.

5,000 TROOPS IN COOPERATION WITH JORDAN IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO DEPLOY THEM IN GAZA, AS WELL AS RELYING ON THE PALESTINIAN POLICEMEN WHO ARE STAYING AT HOMES IN GAZA AND SELECTING THOSE WHO ARE 40 YEARS OR YOUNGER, WE COULD HAVE ANOTHER 5,000 ELEMENTS.

SO IN TOTAL, WE CAN HAVE 10,000 POLICEMEN ON THE GROUND WHO WILL BE ENTRUSTED WITH THE ISSUES RELATED TO NEW ENFORCEMENT AND POLICING GAZA.

OF COURSE, THE SECOND ISSUE IS RELATED TO WHAT WAS AGREED UPON, WHAT WAS STIPULATED IN THE TRUMP PEACE PLAN.

AND AS YOU KNOW, HAMAS ANNOUNCED THAT IT'S WELCOMING THIS PEACE PLAN.

SO WE NEED TO MOVE FORWARD TO PHASE TWO WITH ALL ITS ELEMENTS, AND WE ARE, WE HOPE, AND WE ARE LOOKING FORWARD THAT THE TWO PARTIES WILL HONOR THEIR COMMITMENTS ACCORDING TO THIS IMPORTANT AGREEMENT BECAUSE ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

PRESIDENT TRUMP ANNOUNCED AT THE END OF THIS WAR THAT SHOULD BE VERY CLEAR TO EVERYBODY.

WE CANNOT ALLOW THE RESUMPTION OF HOSTILITIES AGAIN.

PEOPLE PAID A VERY, VERY HEAVY THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN INJURED WITH AT LEAST 70,000 PEOPLE BEING KILLED.

SUFFERING IN GAZA, AND THAT'S WHY WE HAVE TO LOOK TO THE FUTURE AND TO SEE THIS GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY IN ORDER TO IMPLEMENT AND TO WORK FORWARD FOR AGREEING ON, FIRST OF ALL, IMPLEMENTING ALL ELEMENTS OF PHASE ONE, NEGOTIATING AND AGREEING ON PHASE TWO, AND THEN WE MUST LOOK TO THE POLITICAL HORIZON, WHICH WILL OF COURSE LEAD TO THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION, AND THAT WILL PUT AN END TO THE SUFFERING OF THE PALESTINIANS AND BRINGING AN END TO THIS CHAPTER OF CONFLICT OF PROBLEMS.

AND WE ARE CONFIDENT THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WITH HIS DETERMINATION, WITH HIS LEADERSHIP, WITH HIS COMMITMENT, WE BELIEVE THAT HE CAN DO IT.

>> AND BECAUSE THAT WAS NOT, YOU KNOW, WRITTEN DOWN IN BLACK AND WHITE, THE IDEA OF A PALESTINIAN STATE AND HOW IT'S GONNA HAPPEN, PEOPLE HAVE SAID OH, WELL YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LOT OF WISHFUL THINKING AND A LOT OF NICE WORDS THAT ARE BEING WRITTEN IN THE 20-POINT PLAN, BUT THE REAL STRUGGLE WILL BE THIS FINAL PHASE, AS YOU JUST LAID OUT.

BECAUSE IT HAS DEFIED ANY RESOLUTION FOR ALL THESE DECADES.

SO ARE YOU CONVINCED AS EGYPT'S FOREIGN MINISTER THAT THIS IS ABSOLUTELY PART OF THE PLAN?

BECAUSE BENJAMIN NETANYAHU HAS SAID, YOU KNOW, WE WANT TO BURY, YOU KNOW, HIM AND HIS COALITION HAVE SPOKEN AGAINST A PALESTINIAN STATE THROUGHOUT THIS WAR AND BEYOND.

SO DO YOU THINK THAT FINALLY THEY AND THE AMERICANS AND THE STAKEHOLDERS BELIEVE THAT THIS IS PART OF THIS 20-POINT PLAN WITH, I DON'T KNOW, A SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION OR A FORMAL NEGOTIATING PROCESS TO BRING ABOUT A TWO-STATE SOLUTION?

>> WELL, AS YOU KNOW WE HAVE STAGES, AND WE HAVE PHASES.

SO FIRST OF ALL, ENDING THE WAR ALLOW FOR US TO ENTER INTO GAZA.

NO ANNEXATION, NO DISPLACEMENT, AND THEN WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT RECONSTRUCTIONS OF GAZA, AND WE WILL DO IT.

WE ARE PLANNING TO HOST A CONFERENCE NEXT MONTH, NEXT MONTH IN NOVEMBER HERE IN CAIRO WITH THE PARTICIPATION OF ALL THE STAKEHOLDERS, INCLUDING OF COURSE THE UNITED STATES WITH ITS LEADERSHIP, INCLUDING U.N., EUROPEAN UNION, GERMANY, JAPAN, AND OTHERS.

EVERYBODY'S FULLY COMMITTED TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS VERY IMPORTANT CONFERENCE.

AND, OF COURSE, WE ARE MOVING AS I MENTIONED STEP BY STEP, AND WE BELIEVE THAT IN ORDER TO BRING AN END TO THE PALESTINIAN- ISRAELI CONFLICT, THE ONLY GAME IN TOWN WILL BE, OF COURSE, THE ESTABLISHMENT OR THE REALIZATION OF THE PALESTINIAN STATE.

DON'T FORGET THE FACT THAT IN NEW YORK A FEW WEEKS AGO DURING THE UNITED NATION GENERAL ASSEMBLY SESSION, 142 COUNTRIES VOTED IN FAVOR OF THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION WITH SAUDI-FRENCH INITIATIVES.

SO LET'S LOOK TO THE FUTURE, AND LET'S MOVE ONE BY ONE, STEP BY STEP.

THE LIFE OF THE PEOPLE TO BRING THEM FOOD, TO BRING THEM SHELTER, AND THEN TO TALK ABOUT STATEHOOD.

THAT'S IN THE TRUMP PEACE PLAN, AS WELL AS THE POLITICAL HORIZON, WHICH IS ALREADY ON THE PRESENT TRUMP PEACE PLAN.

>> AND FINAL QUESTION.

I HEAR YOU SAYING WITH THE INVOLVEMENT OF PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS CONTINUED INVOLVEMENT.

I THINK EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS HUGE LEVERAGE AND AS LONG AS HE STAYS ON THE ISSUE, IT COULD REAP BENEFITS.

IT WAS ALSO NOTABLE THAT PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU DID NOT ATTEND THE PEACE SUMMIT.

AND THERE ARE THOSE IN YOUR REGION WHO ARE CONCERNED THAT HE HAS MANAGED TO USE MILITARY POWER IN ALL THE NATIONS THAT ARE PROBLEM NATIONS FOR ISRAEL, BUT THEY SAY MAYBE HE DOESN'T HAVE A STRATEGY AND HE'S NOT WILLING FOR PEACE, THAT IT'S, YOU KNOW, CONSTANTLY MOWING THE LAWN AS THEY SAY, AND RESORTING TO MILITARY POWER WHEN THEY WHAT'S YOUR ANALYSIS GIVEN THAT YOU HAVE A PEACE AGREEMENT WITH ISRAEL?

WHAT'S YOUR ANALYSIS OF ISRAEL'S INTENTIONS?

>> WELL, I CANNOT SPEAK ON BEHALF OF THE ISRAELIS.

WE HAVE OUR PEACE TREATY WITH ISRAEL, AND WE ARE FULLY COMMITTED TO THE, UH, AGREEMENT, THE TREATY, OF COURSE, AS LONG AS THE ISRAELI SIDE IS FULLY COMMITTED AS WELL.

SECONDLY, I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT THE MIGHTY POWER CANNOT BRING STABILITY OR SECURITY TO ANY COUNTRY OR TO THE REGION.

WE MUST HAVE A JUST, COMPREHENSIVE SETTLEMENT TO THIS CONFLICT, WHICH WILL RESPOND POSITIVELY TO THE ASPIRATIONS OF THE PALESTINIAN STATE.

THEY HAVE THE FULL RIGHT, THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, SORRY, AND THEY HAVE THE FULL RIGHT TO HAVE THEIR OWN INDEPENDENT, VIABLE PALESTINIAN STATE.

AND THIRDLY, AS I MENTIONED, IT'S ALL ABOUT THE INVOLVEMENT AND COMMITMENTS OF THE UNITED STATES AND PRESIDENT TRUMP.

HE'S THE ONLY PERSON WHO IS CAPABLE AND ABLE TO IMPLEMENT THIS PLAN.

AND OF COURSE, ON ENDING THIS WAR AND NOT TO RESUME IT AGAIN, AND WE HAVE FULL CONFIDENCE ON HIS OWN COMMITMENT, AND THIS IS WHAT PRESIDENT CICI CONVEYED TO PRESIDENT TRUMP THE DAY BEFORE, THAT WE HAVE FAITH, WE HAVE CONFIDENCE ON PRESIDENT TRUMP'S COMMITMENT IN ORDER TO DELIVER, IN ORDER TO MAKE SURE THAT ALL PARTIES WILL ABIDE BY THEIR COMMITMENTS.

THE RULES OF THE GAME OF ENDING THE WAR, OF LOOKING TO THE FUTURE OF HAVING PEACE.

WE MUST HAVE INTEGRATION.

WE ARE READY FOR INTEGRATION.

WE ARE READY FOR NORMALIZATION.

MOST OF THE COUNTRIES ARE WAITING, ARE STANDING READY FOR NORMALIZATION WITH ISRAEL AS LONG AS WE ARE WITH THE PALESTINIAN CAUSE BASED ON THE PARAMETERS AGREED ON BY THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY AND THE REALIZATION OF THE PALESTINIAN STATE, WHICH WILL LIVE IN PEACE AND HARMONY WITH ISRAEL.

PROVIDING STABILITY TO ALL PEOPLE AND THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

WE ARE TIRED.

THERE'S A FATIGUE, YOU KNOW?

SO WE MUST MOVE FORWARD WITH SETTLING DOWN THIS CONFLICT, AND THAT'S WHY THE ONLY GAME IN TOWN IS PRESIDENT TRUMP'S PEACE PLAN, AND THE DAY BEFORE IN THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, ARAB COUNTRIES, MUSLIM COUNTRIES, EVERYBODY AND EVEN LATIN AMERICAN COUNTRIES, ASIAN COUNTRIES, THEY WERE THERE, AND THEY SAID THAT WE ARE IN FULL SUPPORT AND BACKING OF PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS EFFORTS TO PUT AN END TO THE SUFFERING OF THE PALESTINIANS AND TO PUT AN END TO THIS CONFLICT, AND WE HAVE FULL CONFIDENCE ON THE ABILITY OF PRESIDENT TRUMP TO DO THAT.

>> WELL, IT COULD REALLY BECOME SOMETHING REALLY, REALLY SPECIAL.

AND I HOPE ALL YOUR CONFIDENCE IS REALIZED BECAUSE IT'S AN AMAZING MOMENT.

SO FOREIGN MINISTER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HOSTING ME.

>>> NOW MY NEXT GUEST, VENEZUELAN OPPOSITION LEADER MACHADO WAS JUST AWARDED THE 2025 NOBEL PEACE PRIZE FOR HER TIRELESS WORK PROMOTING DEMOCRATIC RIGHTS FOR THE PEOPLE OF VENEZUELA.

THAT WAS THE CITATION.

IN 2024 WHEN THE NICOLAS MADURO REGIME BLOCKED MACHADO, SHE SUPPORTED GONZALEZ.

THE PRO-MADURO ELECTION BOARD, THOUGH, CALLED THE RACE FOR HIM.

DESPITE EXTENSIVE EVIDENCE SHOWING THAT GONZALEZ WAS THE TRUE WINNER.

NOW, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS LABELED MADURO A NARCO TERRORIST.

YESTERDAY, THE WHITE HOUSE LAUNCHED A LETHAL STRIKE ON AN ALLEGED DRUG BOAT.

THE FIFTH SUCH STRIKE SINCE MACHADO DEDICATES HER NOBEL PRIZE TO PRESIDENT TRUMP AND THE PEOPLE OF VENEZUELA.

SHE JOINS US NOW.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

WELCOME.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> SO HOW DO YOU FEEL?

YOU HAVE BEEN TOILING FOR ALL THESE YEARS IN DANGER, YOU KNOW, TO TRY TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM IN VENEZUELA.

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THIS MOMENT?

>> WELL, WE ARE VERY HONORED, GRATEFUL, AND EXCITED BECAUSE IT'S A RECOGNITION FOR A WHOLE SOCIETY THAT OVER 26 YEARS HAS WORKED TIRELESSLY, HAS STRUGGLED, AND HAS SUFFERED MUCH, MUCH HARM FROM A TYRANNY.

IT'S NOT A CONVENTIONAL DICTATORSHIP.

IT'S A CRIMINAL STRUCTURE, A NAROC TERRORIST STRUCTURE THAT HAS TAKEN OVER OUR COUNTRY, OUR INSTITUTIONS, OUR RESOURCES INTENTIONALLY AND HAS MADE A THIRD OF OUR POPULATION, THE LARGEST MIGRATION CRISIS IN THE WORLD, A THIRD OF OUR POPULATION HAVE BEEN FORCED TO FLEE.

SO WE HAVE DONE GREAT THINGS TOGETHER.

WE HAVE WORKED CIVICALLY.

WE WON AN ELECTION LAST YEAR, PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS A VERY UNFAIR, EXTREME CONDITIONS.

AND THIS IS A CONFIRMATION THAT THE WORLD IS SUPPORTING THE CAUSE FOR DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM IN OUR REGION.

>> AND YOU'RE IN HIDING.

YOU KNOW, WE'RE NOT REVEALING YOUR LOCATION, BUT YOU ARE IN VENEZUELA, WHICH IS PRETTY EXTRAORDINARY GIVEN YOUR SITUATION.

DO YOU THINK THAT THIS NOBEL SOMEHOW PUTS A FURTHER SHIELD AROUND YOU?

AND HOW WILL YOU USE IT, THE RECOGNITION AND I ASSUME, I'M NOT SURE, I THINK THERE'S MONEY THAT COMES WITH IT, IN THE STRUGGLE?

>> I DO THINK IT INCREASES THE COST FOR THE REGIME TO FURTHER HARM ME.

AFTER I WON THE ELECTION, A FEW HOURS AFTERWARDS, I WAS ACCUSED OF TERRORISM AND ALL THE CRIMES YOU CAN IMAGINE FROM THE REGIME.

YOU KNOW, THE WORST REPRESSION WAVE WAS UNLEASHED.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF VOLUNTEERS THAT WERE DISAPPEARED OR IN PRISON.

THEIR HOMES WERE MARKED WITH CROSSES JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE DEFENDING THE VOTE.

THE INTER-AMERICAN COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS HAVE CALLED THIS TERRORISM OF STATE.

THE FACT-FINDING MISSION OF UNITED NATIONS HAVE CALLED THEM CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

EVEN CHILDREN WHO WERE IN PRISON, WOMEN TORTURED AND ABUSED JUST BECAUSE THEY DEFENDED THEIR VOTES.

SO OF COURSE WE'RE ALL UNDER, YOU KNOW, GREAT HARM.

850 PRISONERS OF WAR THAT UNDER MADURO.

AND THIS IS A DIFFICULT MOMENT, BUT I AM ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED THAT WE ARE FINALLY AT DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM.

ALL VECTORS HAVE ALIGNED, AND THE REGIME IS WEAKER THAN EVER.

>> CAN I ASK YOU, DO YOU EVER FEEL FREE?

YOU DON'T SOUND IT.

YOU DON'T LOOK IT.

BUT THERE MUST BE A HUGE AMOUNT OF PRESSURE.

THE RELATED QUESTION IS HOW DO YOU LEAD A MOVEMENT FROM THE SHADOWS?

AND DO YOU THINK THE OPPOSITION IS NOW EVEN MORE UNITED?

>> OH, CERTAINLY.

OUR COUNTRY IS MORE UNITED THAN EVER.

YOU KNOW, I DARE TO SAY THERE'S NO OTHER SOCIETY IN OUR REGION, PERHAPS IN THE WORLD AS COHESIVE.

90% OF OUR POPULATION WANTS THE SAME.

NOT ONLY MADURO TO GO, BUT WE WANT OUR CHILDREN BACK HOME.

WE WANT A COUNTRY IN WHICH WE CAN LIVE WITH DIGNITY, IN WHICH WE ARE EQUAL IN THE FACE OF THE LAW, IN A COUNTRY IN WHICH YOU CAN SPEAK OUT, IN WHICH YOU CAN WORK WITH SOLIDARITY AND GENEROSITY.

WE HAVE TO TEAR DOWN THE BARRIERS THEY PUT UP TO DIVIDE OUR SOCIETY.

VENEZUELA HAS NO RELIGIOUS TENSIONS, RACIAL DIFFERENCES, REGIONAL DIFFERENCES, ECONOMIC OR SOCIAL.

THAT'S WHY I INSIST THAT THIS IS GOING TO BE, EVEN THOUGH A GREAT CHALLENGE BECAUSE THE COUNTRY HAS BEEN DEVASTATED ECONOMICALLY AND SITUATIONALLY AND TURNING TO THE CRIMINAL HUB OF THE REGION, THIS IS GOING TO BE AN ORDERLY TRANSITION BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT.

>> UH-HUH.

>> AND THE CENTER IS THE PEOPLE.

SO THAT'S MY ANSWER TO YOU.

VENEZUELAN PEOPLE THAT I KNOW THIS WILL HAVE HUGE IMPACT IN THE REGION.

THIS IS A UNIQUE MOMENT FOR THE AMERICAS.

>> SO YOU'RE NOT AFRAID THEN.

AND MADURO CALLED YOU, WHAT DID HE CALL YOU?

A DEMONIC WITCH.

WHEN HE HEARD ABOUT YOU BEING AWARDED THIS.

YOU CALL HIM SOULLESS.

DO YOU THINK THEY DARE TO HURT YOU?

>> OH, YES, I DO.

THEY WOULD DARE TO DO ANYTHING TO STAY IN POWER.

BUT AT THE END, AS WE SPEAK, HE'S MORE ISOLATED THAN EVER.

NOT ONLY LOCALLY.

I MEAN INTERNALLY.

EVEN HE DOESN'T EVEN TRUST THE ARMED FORCES OR THE POLICE.

THIS CRAZY IDEA, WHICH IS ALL FAKE ABOUT ARMING MILITIAS IS BECAUSE HE DOESN'T TRUST THE MILITARY.

OVER 80% OF THE ARMED FORCES THEY'RE ALSO SUFFERING HUNGER AND HUMILIATION, AND THEY WANT TO BE PART OF A SECURE NATION.

YOU KNOW, A COUNTRY THAT CAN OPEN OUR ARMS, AND YOU WILL SEE SOMETHING.

AND THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT.

YOU KNOW, THE DAY MADURO GOES OUT, WE WILL SEE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF VENEZUELANS COMING BACK HOME FROM EVERYWHERE.

FROM EVERYWHERE.

>> SO LET ME DIVE INTO THAT PART THEN.

THE DAY MADURO GOES OUT, AS YOU KNOW AND YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT IT, YOU JUST CALLED HIM THE TOP OF A NARCO TERRORIST STATE.

AND SO DOES THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION CALL IT A NARCO TERRORIST STATE LED BY A NARCO TERRORIST REGIME.

AND THEY HAVE NOW DONE THEIR FIFTH ATTACK ON A BOAT, WHICH THEY CALL A DRUG BOAT.

THERE IS A HUGE AMOUNT OF THOUGHT THAT THIS IS NOT SO MUCH ABOUT DRUGS MAYBE BUT AND YOU YOURSELF HAVE WELCOMED THIS U.S.

MILITARY INTERVENTION.

SO WALK US THROUGH THAT.

WHY DO YOU WANT YOUR COUNTRY'S FUTURE TO BE DECIDED BY U.S.

MILITARY INTERVENTION?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, REGIME CHANGE WAS ALREADY MANDATED IN ABSOLUTELY UNFAIR CONDITIONS THAT WE WON.

PEOPLE USED TO TELL ME THAT I WAS CRAZY, THAT IT WAS ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE TO WIN WITH THOSE CONDITIONS.

WE BUILT A LEGION OF OVER ONE MILLION VOLUNTEERS.

WE HAD NO MONEY.

WE HAD NO MEDIA.

NO ONE DARED TO SPEAK.

WE HAD NO INTERNATIONAL SUPPORT WHATSOEVER.

MY TEAM HAVE BEEN IN PRISON OR PERSECUTED SINCE THEN.

I WON A PRIMARY WITH OVER 90% OF THE VOTES, AND I WAS BANNED FROM PARTICIPATING, AND I DARED TO WALK, STEP UP.

NO ONE KNEW HIM.

SO WE MANAGED TO CREATE THIS INCREDIBLE CIVIL ORGANIZATION.

WE WON BY A LANDSLIDE.

WE COLLECTED OVER 85% OF THE ORIGINAL TALLY SHEETS.

WE BROUGHT THEM TO UNDISCLOSED AREAS.

WE DIGITIZED THEM.

WE SHOWED THEM AFTER SCANNING THEM TO THE WORLD, AND THEN MADURO DECIDED TO DECLARE WAR ON THE VENEZUELAN PEOPLE.

WAR.

WE DIDN'T WANT THIS WAR.

HE STARTED THAT WAR.

AND WE NEED THE HELP OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES TO STOP THIS WAR.

BECAUSE IT IS ABOUT HUMAN LIVES.

SO ANY CRIMINAL STRUCTURE REMAINS IN POWER, IN CONTROL WITH THE SOURCES IT GETS.

IN THE CASE OF MADURO AND HIS CRIMINAL NARCO TERRORISM STRUCTURE IS THROUGH DRUG TRAFFICKING, GOAL TRAFFICKING, ARMS TRAFFICKING, EVEN HUMAN TRAFFICKING.

AND WE NEED TO CUT THOSE FLOWS FROM COMING IN.

BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THE REGIME USED FOR REPRESSION AND ALSO FOR EXPANDING ITS CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES.

AND THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

WE'RE ASKING OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE CARIBBEAN, IN LATIN AMERICA, AND EUROPE TO JOIN THAT INTERNATIONAL COALITION.

>> I WANT TO PRESS YOU ON THIS.

THE NARCO TRAFFICKING STATE, THIS IS WHAT JUAN GONZALEZ WHO IS PRESIDENT BIDEN'S NATIONAL SECURITY DIRECTOR FOR THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE TOLD ME ABOUT THIS, BEING ESSENTIALLY ONLY 5% OF COCAINE FLOWS THROUGH VENEZUELA.

THIS IS WHAT HE TOLD ME.

>> THE REASON THAT DRUGS HAVE NEVER ORIGINATED FROM VENEZUELA IN THE WAY THEY'VE ORIGINATED FROM COLUMBIA, OVER 95% OF THE COCAINE THAT COMES TO THE COLUMBIA IS BECAUSE VENEZUELA HAS THE LARGEST GOLD AND OIL RESERVES IN LATIN AMERICA.

THERE'S NEVER BEEN A NEED FOR THEM TO DEVELOP A NATIVE DRUG- PRODUCING INDUSTRY.

>> TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

WHEN PEOPLE LOOK AT WHAT'S GOING ON, THEY SAY OKAY, THEY'VE USED THE DRUG ISSUE TO JUSTIFY GETTING RID OF MADURO, LIKE THEY USED THE NON-EXISTENT WMD ISSUE TO GET RID OF SADDAM HUSSEIN IN IRAQ.

I GUESS WHAT I'M ASKING YOU IS ARE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT THAT, GIVEN THAT IT'S NOT AS MUCH, CERTAINLY IT'S NOT FENTANYL THAT COMES FROM CHINA THROUGH MEXICO.

AND IT'S NOT THAT MUCH COCAINE RELATIVELY SPEAKING.

>> WELL, I TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH YOUR GUEST'S STATEMENT.

USING THE FBI'S OWN REPORT 2020, 24% OF THE WORLD TRADE OF COCAINE GOES THROUGH VENEZUELA.

AND THIS IS INCREASING.

AND CERTAINLY THE REGIME HAS THE CARTELS IN ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL CRIMINAL STRUCTURES, HAVING ACTIVITIES ALL ALONG THIS CONTINENT AND OTHER CONTINENTS AS WELL.

NOT ONLY THAT, THE REGIME HAS PROMOTED CRIMINAL STRUCTURE SUCH AS TREND DERAGUA THAT HAVE CRIMINALS OPERATING FROM CANADA TO ARGENTINA.

JUST TODAY, THE PRESIDENT OF CHILE DECLARED THEY HAVE PROOF THAT THE TOP GOVERNMENT OF VENEZUELA, MADURO, IS THE INTELLECTUAL MURDER OF VENEZUELAN DISDENT THAT WAS KILLED IN SANTIAGO A YEAR AGO.

IT'S AN OPINION THAT COMES FROM THE RIGHT.

VENEZUELA IS THE MAIN CHANNEL OF COCAINE, AND THAT THIS IS, IT'S A BUSINESS THAT HAS BEEN RUN BY MADURO FROM FLORES.

>> HERE'S THE THING.

I'M CONFUSED ABOUT YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

ON THE ONE HAND, YOU WELCOMED THIS ACTION.

ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU DEDICATED YOUR PRIZE TO HIM FOR HIS SUPPORT OF YOUR CAUSE.

AND ON THE OTHER HAND, ONE OF HIS ALLIES OR, YOU KNOW, OFFICIALS, WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR STEVEN CHUNG SAID THE NOBEL COMMITTEE PROVED THEY PLACED POLITICS OVER PEACE SORT OF DISAPPROVING YOU GOT IT AND THE PRESIDENT DIDN'T GET IT.

HAVE YOU SPOKEN TO PRESIDENT TRUMP ABOUT THIS?

TELL ME WHY YOU DEDICATE YOURS TO HIM.

>> OH, BECAUSE IT'S ABSOLUTELY FAIR.

AND THAT'S WHAT THE VENEZUELAN PEOPLE FEEL.

WE ARE GETTING FINALLY A IS ADDRESSING THIS TRAGIC SITUATION IN VENEZUELA THAT HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR 26 YEARS.

AS IT SHOULD BE, WE HAVE BEEN ASKED THAT THIS CRIMINAL STRUCTURE BE ADDRESSED USING LAW ENFORCEMENT.

AND THAT'S FINALLY WHAT'S HAPPENING.

AND I DID HAVE THE CHANCE TO SPEAK ON FRIDAY WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP, AND IT WAS A VERY GOOD CONVERSATION.

AND I WAS ABLE TO CONVEY TO HIM OUR, YOU KNOW, GRATITUDE FOR WHAT HE'S DOING.

AND I ABSOLUTELY THINK HE DESERVES A NOBEL PEACE PRIZE BECAUSE OF INCREDIBLE EVENTS THAT ARE TAKING PLACE CURRENTLY IN THE WORLD, ONE OF THEM CERTAINLY THE CONFLICT IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND GAZA, WHICH HAS HAD THE SUPPORT OF THE WHOLE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

EVERY SINGLE SIDE OF IT, INCLUDING LATIN AMERICA CERTAINLY, BUT ALSO BECAUSE HE VENEZUELA IS IN THE HEART OF THE AMERICAS.

AND MADURO HAS TURNED OUR COUNTRY INTO A REAL THREAT TO THE NATIONAL SECURITY OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE HEMISPHERE, AND WE'RE GONNA TURN VENEZUELA FROM THAT CRIMINAL HUB INTO AN ENERGY HUB THAT BRINGS PROSPERITY AND SECURITY TO ALL OUR PEOPLE, FIRST AND FOREMOST.

BUT ALSO TO THE REST OF THE PEOPLE OF THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE.

>> CLEARLY, VENEZUELA HAS A MASSIVE POTENTIAL IN RICHES.

WE KNOW THAT.

TO THE CRITICAL ISSUE OF AMERICAN INVOLVEMENT, YOU KNOW IN YOUR HEMISPHERE THERE'S BEEN DECADES OF IT, AND IT HASN'T ALL GONE REALLY WELL.

THE PRESIDENT OF MEXICO DID NOT JOIN IN THE HUGE CONGRATULATIONS AROUND THE WORLD, CITING NATIONAL SOVEREIGNTY AND SELF- DETERMINATION.

SO THIS IS OBVIOUSLY AN ISSUE.

IT'S OBVIOUSLY AN ISSUE FOR VARIOUS DIFFERENT LEADERS IN LATIN AMERICA.

INTERVENTION IN YOUR COUNTRY, MILITARY INTERVENTION?

>> WE'RE CALLING FOR THE INTERVENTION OF RUSSIA, CHINA, CUBA, AND IRAN TO BE STOPPED AND TO BE EXPELLED.

VENEZUELA RIGHT NOW IS A SAFE HAVEN.

HEZBOLLAH, HAMAS, THE DRUG CARTELS, OPERATE FREELY.

AND THEY'RE PART OF THIS LIAISON WITH THE REGIME.

WHAT WE HAVE DONE, THE VENEZUELAN PEOPLE AS I SAID IS ALREADY MANDATED REGIME CHANGE.

WE WANT IT, AND WE NEED HELP TO ENFORCE THAT DECISION.

AND THAT HELP COMES IN TERMS OF APPLYING, ENFORCING THE LAW.

CUTTING THOSE FLOWS THAT COME FROM THESE CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES.

AND YOU KNOW WHAT?

MAKING PUBLIC, UNVEILING ALL THE INFORMATION MANY OF THESE GOVERNMENTS HAVE.

NOT ONLY THE UNITED STATES, EUROPEAN COUNTRIES AND GOVERNMENTS THAT KNOW THEIR FINANCIAL SYSTEMS ARE BEING USED BY THESE CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES.

WE WANT THIS TO BE ABSOLUTELY MADE PUBLIC.

AND BELIEVE ME, AS WE SPEAK, THE VENEZUELAN PEOPLE ARE ORGANIZING.

YES, UNDERGROUND, UNDER HUGE THREAT BUT GROWING AND GROWING HOPE.

AND DETERMINED, DETERMINED TO PREVAIL.

VENEZUELA WILL BE FREE.

>> MARIA MACHADO, THAT WAS VERY CLEAR INDEED.

CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR NOBEL PRIZE.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND NOW A LOOK BACK AT THE VERY BEGINNINGS OF THE UNITED STATES AND WHERE IT IS 250 YEARS LATER.

THAT IS THE FOCUS OF THE ATLANTIC'S NOVEMBER ISSUE.

THE FOUNDING FATHER'S LOFTY IDEALS AND HOW THE COUNTRY IS LIVING UP TO THEM.

JEFF GOLDBURG, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

YOU AND THE ATLANTIC HAVE JUST LAUNCHED A SERIES AND A SPECIAL ISSUE FOR THE 250th BIRTHDAY OF OUR NATION.

IT'S CALLED THE UNFINISHED REVOLUTION.

FIRST OF ALL, TELL ME WHY YOU CALL IT UNFINISHED.

>> IT WILL NEVER BE FINISHED.

I MEAN, NO HUMAN ENDEAVOR EVER REACHES A STAGE OF PERFECTION IN MY MIND.

SO WE ARE, UH, WE'RE 250 YEARS INTO THIS EXPERIMENT.

IT'S NOT A STRAIGHT SHOT TO NEAR PERFECTION IN AMERICAN HISTORY OR ANY OTHER HISTORY.

BUT WE HAVE SEEN THE EXPANSION OF THE AMERICAN IDEA TO INCLUDE WOMEN, TO INCLUDE BLACK PEOPLE, TO INCLUDE ALL KINDS OF OTHER PEOPLE.

INTO THE PROMISE THAT WAS MADE BY THE FOUNDERS, THE GENIUS FOUNDERS OF THE UNITED STATES.

WHAT I MEAN BY UNFINISHED IS WE'RE ALWAYS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT BETTER WAYS TO BE A REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY.

IT'S ALSO UNFINISHED, THERE'S A, I GUESS YOU WOULD SAY A PARTICULARLY UNFINISHED QUALITY TO WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW WHERE IN MY MIND AND IN THE MINDS OF A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE WE'RE SLIPPING BACKWARDS IN MANY CATEGORIES, INCLUDING AND ESPECIALLY IN ORGANIZING A GOVERNMENT BY THE PEOPLE AND FOR THE PEOPLE.

IF YOU TAKE THE LONG VIEW, YOU REALIZE THAT AMERICA GOES UP, AMERICA GOES DOWN.

WE GO THROUGH PERIODS OF IDEALISM AND PERIODS OF CYNICISM LIKE WE'RE IN RIGHT NOW.

BUT YOU KNOW, IT'S THE TASK OF EVERY CITIZEN TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THEIR RESPONSIBILITY IS AS DELINEATED BY THE FOUNDING DOCUMENTS AND THE FOUNDING FATHERS OF OUR COUNTRY.

AND THAT'S WHAT THIS ISSUE TRIES TO DO.

IT SORT OF SAYS THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED, THIS IS WHAT IT MEANS.

THIS IS WHERE WE'RE GOING, AND HERE ARE THE CHALLENGES AHEAD.

>> YOU JUST SAID THAT WE GENERALLY PROGRESS, BUT SOMETIMES WE SLIP BACKWARDS, AND WE'RE SLIPPING BACKWARDS NOW YOU SAID.

DEMOCRACY, BY AND FOR THE PEOPLE.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

>> THE THING THAT REALLY EATS AT ME RIGHT NOW IS THIS.

THE FOUNDERS WERE, GENERALLY SPEAKING, PESSIMISTS ABOUT HUMAN NATURE SO DEVISED A GOVERNMENT THAT WOULD WORK AGAINST THE VAGARIES OF HUMAN NATURE.

OBVIOUSLY, WE HAD MEN WHO FOUNDED THIS COUNTRY WHO HAD EXTRAORDINARY INSIGHT INTO HUMAN NATURE, AND ALSO EXTRAORDINARY QUALITIES.

I MEAN, GEORGE WASHINGTON OBVIOUSLY SET THE PATTERN UNTIL TODAY WHEN HE WENT HOME.

RIGHT?

LEADERS DON'T GO HOME.

THEY DON'T VOLUNTARILY GIVE UP POWER.

GEORGE WASHINGTON BECAME A MODEL FOR EVERY PRESIDENT UNTIL TODAY, UNTIL TODAY'S PRESIDENT, OF THE PERSON WHO TAKES POWER AND THEN WILLINGLY CEDES POWER.

NOW, OBVIOUSLY.

THE THING THAT GETS ME IS THE SEPARATION OF POWERS.

EACH BRANCH WOULD CHECK THE POWER OF THE OTHER BRANCH.

THAT ONLY WORKS IF EVERYBODY TAKES ON THEIR PROPER ROLE, AND RIGHT NOW WE HAVE A SITUATION IN WHICH CONGRESS IN MY MIND AGAIN, CONGRESS IS NOT TAKING THE POWER GRANTED TO IT BY THE CONSTITUTION TO ACTUALLY BE A CHECK ON EXECUTIVE POWER.

SO IT WORKS ON PAPER, BUT IT ONLY REALLY WORKS IF EVERYBODY PLAYS THEIR DESIGNATED ROLE.

AND WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND ABOUT THIS MOMENT, MORE THAN ALMOST ANY OTHER THING I DON'T UNDERSTAND ABOUT THIS MOMENT, IS WHY THE LEADERS OF CONGRESS DON'T FULFILL THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES.

WHY DON'T THEY DO THE THINGS THAT THEY CAN DO?

WHICH IS TO CHECK THE EXECUTIVE.

SO HERE WE ARE.

WE'RE HERE WHERE WE ARE IN LARGE PART BECAUSE CONGRESS DOESN'T DO WHAT IT WAS MEANT TO IF THE YOU LOOK AT WATERGATE, WHY DID WATERGATE END?

WHY DID NIXON RESIGN?

BECAUSE THE REPUBLICAN LEADERS OF CONGRESS SAID TO HIM, THAT'S ENOUGH.

THANK YOU.

BUT WE'LL TAKE IT FROM HERE.

AND WE DON'T HAVE THAT SITUATION TODAY.

NOT BY A LONG SHOT.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT DIFFUSES THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE IS AT THE CORE OF CONSTITUTION, AND YOU JUST REFERRED TO IT.

WHICH IS A PROTECTION AGAINST AUTHORITARIAN RULE, A PROTECTION THEY WERE TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT WE DIDN'T HAVE A MONARCH AGAIN, AND THAT'S WHAT THE WHOLE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE IS ABOUT.

THAT'S WHAT THEY DO WHEN THEY BALANCE IT IN THE CONSTITUTION.

WHY ARE YOU FEARING THAT WE ARE NOW GETTING BACK TO A MORE AUTHORITARIAN EXECUTIVE?

>> WELL, BECAUSE WE ELECTED A PERSON WHO DOES NOT, IT'S ABUNDANTLY CLEAR, HAVE THE SAME RESPECT FOR THE RESTRAINTS THAT HAVE WILLINGLY TAKEN ON TO ADVANCE THE CAUSE OF REPRESENTING OUR DEMOCRACY.

HE'S JUST IN A DIFFERENT MINDSET.

EVERY PRESIDENT LOVES POWER.

AND YOU KNOW, TO EVEN RUN FOR PRESIDENT AND THINK THAT YOU COULD DO THE JOB SUGGESTS THAT THERE'S SOMETHING, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A SCREW LOOSE ANYWAY, RIGHT?

BUT UNTIL THIS PRESIDENT, WE HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED A PERSON WHO HAS, FRANKLY, YOU KNOW, AUTHORITARIAN IMPULSES.

AND WHO BELIEVES THAT THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE USED AS A WEAPON AGAINST HIS DOMESTIC POLITICAL ENEMIES.

SO WE HAVE THAT, AND AGAIN I COME BACK TO THIS.

THE STORY OF OUR MOMENT IS NOT SIMPLY THE STORY OF A MAN WHO BELIEVES THAT HE HAS OR SHOULD TAKE PRIVILEGES THAT PREVIOUS PRESIDENTS DIDN'T THINK THEY SHOULD TAKE.

THE STORY IS A SYSTEM OUT OF DESIGNATED BY THE CONSTITUTION TO CHECK HIS POWER AREN'T CHECKING HIS POWER.

AND AGAIN, THIS CONVERSATION COULD GO INTO WHY ARE WE IN THIS MOMENT?

AND I WOULD SAY THAT THE RISE OF REALITY TV AND THE ENTERTAINMENT-INTERNET COMPLEX AND THE RISE OF SOCIAL MEDIA HAVE LOWERED OUR RESISTANCE TO THE KIND OF POPULISM THAT WE SEE TODAY.

YOU KNOW, WE'RE INOCULATED AGAINST THIS KIND OF THING BY THE NATURALLY SLOWER PROCESSES THAT WE HAD IN OUR POLITICS.

BUT NOW THAT EVERYTHING'S AT WARP SPEED AND NOW THAT VERY, VERY, VERY BAD AND DANGEROUS IDEAS CAN MOVE AROUND THE WORLD IN A NANOSECOND, WE'RE IN A DIFFERENT THING, AND DONALD TRUMP TAKES ADVANTAGE OF THOSE THINGS.

>> TO WHAT EXTENT DO YOU SEE THE ROLE OF THE PRESS?

YOU TALK ABOUT CONGRESS NOT STEPPING UP TO THE PLATE, BUT THE ROLE OF THE PRESS IN DEALING WITH THIS MOMENT?

PRESS, WE'RE FINISHED.

OBVIOUSLY.

AUTHORITARIANS ACROSS THE WORLD UNDERSTAND THAT POINT, WHICH IS WHY THEY TURN THE PRESS INTO THE ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE.

JEFFERSON IN PARTICULAR, BUT MANY OTHER OF THE FOUNDERS UNDERSTOOD THE INDISPENSEABILITY OF A FREE PRESS.

REMEMBER, THAT CHAOS THAT THEY WORRIED ABOUT WAS A VERY MEASURED, SLOW CHAOS BY THE STANDARDS OF TODAY.

ONE OF THE THINGS I WOULD SAY IS THAT, AND THIS IS SORT OF A COMMENTARY ON THE WAY THE PRESS ITSELF BEHAVES.

WE DON'T AS AN INDUSTRY, AS A COLLECTION OF OPPOSITIONAL PEOPLE, WE DON'T EXPLAIN WHY WE DO WHAT WE DO TO PEOPLE ANYMORE.

WE JUST ASSUME THAT EVERYBODY UNDERSTANDS THE VALUABLE ROLE OF THE PRESS AND THE VALUABLE THEIR LIVES.

AND I DON'T THINK THAT CAN BE TAKEN FOR GRANTED ANYMORE, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO ACTIVELY ARGUES AGAINST THE, THE EXISTENCE OF A FREE, UNTRAMMELED PRESS.

I'M THROWING OUT A BUNCH OF IDEAS AND QUESTIONS.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO YET.

I DO KNOW THAT WE HAVE TO A, HOLD THE LINE ON WHAT WE DO.

BUT B, EXPLAIN TO PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY PEOPLE SUSCEPTIBLE TO PROPAGANDA FROM THE ANTI- PRESS SIDE, WHY THIS IS SO IMPORTANT AND WHY WE DO WHAT WE DO.

THE THIRD THING THAT WE CAN DO, OBVIOUSLY, IS TRY TO GET BETTER AT WHAT WE DO AND RECOGNIZE OUR OWN FAULTS AND INTERROGATE HOW WE DO THINGS.

BUT I THINK THE PRESS, I DON'T KNOW WHERE WE WOULD BE WITHOUT A FREE PRESS TODAY.

WE WOULD BE IN A MUCH MORE AUTHORITARIAN POSITION IF WE DIDN'T HAVE THE FREE PRESS RIGHT NOW.

>> YOU CALLED THIS UNFINISHED REVOLUTION, YOU SAID BECAUSE IN SOME WAYS WE HAVE TO KEEP IMPROVING.

THE ARC IS TOWARD PROGRESS, BUT IT GOES BACK AND FORTH.

A LOT OF FLAWS IN THE AMERICAN THING.

BUT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS TALKED ABOUT, HE PUT OUT AN ORDER IN MARCH CALLED RESTORING TRUTH AND SANITY TO AMERICAN HISTORY, WHICH DECLARES OVER THE PAST DECADE AMERICANS HAVE WITNESSED A CONCERTED EFFORT TO REWRITE OUR NATION'S HISTORY REPLACING OBJECTIVE FACTS WITH DISTORTED NARRATIVES DRIVEN BY IDEOLOGY, RATHER THAN TRUTH.

WHEN YOU'RE TRYING TO PUT TOGETHER THIS ISSUE, DO YOU FEEL THE PUSH OF THIS PRESIDENT AND THIS ADMINISTRATION TRYING TO KEEP OUR HISTORY LOOKING GREAT?

OR DO YOU SEE HOW YOU CAN DO A BALANCE?

>> LOOK, THERE ARE THREE CAMPS IN AMERICA.

I'M MAKING THIS OVERSIMPLIFIED, COMES TO UNDERSTANDING AMERICAN HISTORY.

THERE'S WHAT I THINK OF AS MY CAMP, PROBABLY YOUR CAMP, WHICH THINKS THAT AMERICA IS A WONDERFUL COUNTRY, A WONDERFUL EXPERIMENT THAT SOMETIMES IT'S MADE BAD MISTAKES, BUT THE GREAT THING ABOUT AMERICA IS THAT WE LEARN FROM OUR MISTAKES, AND THEN WE GET BETTER.

THE EXPANSION OF RIGHTS IS ONE EXAMPLE OF THAT.

AND THAT WE'RE SO STRONG AND SELF-CONFIDENT THAT WE CAN EXAMINE HONESTLY THE MISTAKES WE'VE MADE IN ORDER TO LEARN FROM THEM AND JUST DEAL WITH THEM.

THERE'S ANOTHER CAMP THAT IS SO BRITTLE AND FRAGILE IN ITS UNDERSTANDING OF AMERICAN HISTORY THAT THEY THINK YOU CAN'T SAY ANYTHING BAD ABOUT AMERICA AT ALL, WHICH IS SILLY.

IT'S JUST JUVENILE, RIGHT?

THAT TO CRITICIZE ANY ASPECT OF AMERICA IS TO BE ANTI-AMERICAN.

THERE'S A THIRD CAMP, AND THIS THAT THINKS AMERICA IS UNIQUELY EVIL IN THE WORLD.

I DON'T HAVE MUCH PATIENCE FOR IT BECAUSE IT'S SO DUMB.

THAT AMERICA IS A UNIQUELY EVIL PRESENCE ON THE WORLD STAGE.

THAT'S NOT FOR ME.

I'M IN THE MIDDLE GROUP, WHICH SAYS THAT AMERICA IS A WONDERFUL EXPERIMENT, IT'S A WONDERFUL COUNTRY WORTH SAVING AND GROWING, AND THAT WE MAKE MISTAKES AND THAT WE SHOULD FIX OUR MISTAKES AND ACKNOWLEDGE THEM.

I FIND THAT TO BE A SENSIBLE MIDDLE GROUND, BUT THAT'S WHERE WE ARE.

AND WHAT YOU'RE SEEING NOW WHEN IT COMES TO THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES, THE SMITHSONIAN, EVEN THE KENNEDY CENTER, YOU'RE SEEING THAT CAMP OF BRITTLENESS DOMINATING THE CONVERSATION.

AND THAT'S NOT USEFUL, AND THAT'S NOT WHAT MAKES A COUNTRY GREAT.

WHAT MAKES A COUNTRY GREAT IS A LOT OF PEOPLE ARGUING ABOUT WHAT MAKES A COUNTRY GREAT.

SO THAT'S WHY WE'RE IN THIS WEIRD MOMENT.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH, OF COURSE, IS SLAVERY.

AND THE NOTION THAT JEFFERSON CAN WRITE ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL WHEN HE'S ENSLAVED 200 PEOPLE AND THERE ARE 500,000 ENSLAVED AFRICANS IN THE COLONIES AT THAT POINT.

ANNETTE REID TAKES ON THE QUESTION OF HOW DO YOU LOOK AT THAT BUT ALSO SEE THE PROGRESS MADE 250 YEARS SINCE THEN.

TELL ME HOW ANNETTE GORDON REID TAKES ON THAT ISSUE OF ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL AND HOW WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THAT.

>> HERE'S A MANIFESTATION OF ANNETTE'S GENIUS AND OF LONNIE BUNCH'S GENIUS IN HOW DO WE TALK ABOUT HISTORY.

ALSO THE FOUNDING DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL, UH, AFRICAN AMERICAN HISTORY MUSEUM.

WHEN YOU GO TO THE, YOU CAN SEE ANNETTE'S THEORY BROUGHT TO LIFE IN THAT MUSEUM.

THERE'S A STATUE OF THOMAS JEFFERSON, ABOUT SEVEN TO EIGHT FEET TALL.

BEHIND HIM IS A CURVED BRICK WALL THAT HAS ETCHED INTO EACH BRICK THE NAME OF ONE OF THE SLAVES, ONE OF THE ENSLAVED PEOPLE, BLACK AMERICANS WHO WERE KEPT IN MONTICELLO.

AND THE WALL IS HIGHER THAN JEFFERSON.

AND THE SYMBOLISM THERE IS OBVIOUS, THAT THE SIN OF JEFFERSON IS LARGER THAN THE MAN, RIGHT?

THEN ABOVE THAT, TWO STORIES HIGH, THE OPENING WORDS OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE.

AND THAT SYMBOLIZES THAT THE IDEALS THAT JEFFERSON HELD BUT DIDN'T LIVE UP TO AS A MAN ARE PERFECT.

AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE STRIVING FOR.

IT'S THE PERFECT REPRESENTATION.

AND YOU KNOW, I HAVE SUCH ADMIRATION FOR ANNETTE AND ALL THE SCHOLARS WHO HAVE MADE JEFFERSON THE MORE COMPLICATED, THAT'S PROBABLY A EUPHEMISM, COMPLICATED FIGURE THAN HE ACTUALLY IS, BUT THAT'S A PERFECT REPRESENTATION OF THE ENTIRETY OF THE AMERICAN STORY.

THE FOUNDERS WERE FLAWED MEN WHO HAD A LIMITED UNDERSTANDING BY OUR UNDERSTANDING TODAY OF WHO GETS FREEDOM, RIGHT?

BUT THEY ARTICULATED A SET OF IDEAS THAT IF YOU ACTUALLY CARRIED THEM OUT WOULD CREATE SOMETHING CLOSE TO UTOPIA ON EARTH.

AND THAT'S, I DON'T KNOW.

THAT SHOULD KEEP AMERICANS MOTIVATED FOR A LIFETIME.

LET'S GET BETTER.

WE DON'T HAVE TO, WE DON'T HAVE TO MAKE BELIEVE THAT THOMAS JEFFERSON AND GEORGE WASHINGTON WERE PERFECT PEOPLE, WE JUST HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THEY HAD SOME PRETTY GOOD IDEAS FOR US AND THAT WE SHOULD DO THEM.

>> I HAVE A PIECE COMING OUT IN THIS SERIES A LITTLE BIT LATER BASED ON A BOOK I'VE DONE ABOUT THE DECLARATION THAT TALKS ABOUT THAT SECOND SENTENCE, WE HOLD THESE TRUTHS TO BE SELF- EVIDENT AS BEING A FOUNDATION FOR COMMON GROUND IN THIS COUNTRY AND FOR THE AMERICAN DREAM.

HOW CAN A SERIES LIKE YOU'VE DONE IN THE ATLANTIC, YOU KNOW, IN THE TRADITION OF YOUR PREVIOUS EDITORS, OF EMERSON AND OLIVER HOLMES AND OTHERS, HOW CAN A SERIES LIKE THIS FORM A FOUNDATION FOR COMMON GROUND?

>> ONE OF MY WORRIES IS THAT WE DON'T TALK ABOUT THESE THINGS ANYMORE.

YOU CAN'T, YOU JUST CAN'T ASSUME THAT PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THEIR OWN HISTORY UNLESS IT'S TAUGHT AND DISCUSSED WIDELY.

I DON'T HAVE ANY ILLUSIONS ABOUT THE CAPACITY OF ONE MAGAZINE OR ONE, YOU KNOW, ONE BOOK OR 1,000 BOOKS OR 1,000 KEN BURNS DOCUMENTS TO MOVE US BACK ON TO A CONSTRUCTIVE PATHWAY.

BUT JUST BECAUSE IT'S HARD TO DO DOESN'T MEAN YOU DON'T DO IT.

I MEAN, THAT'S WHAT CITIZENSHIP IS.

CITIZENSHIP IS TRYING.

AND YOU KNOW, I THOUGHT ABOUT IT, AND I'VE BEEN ASKED THIS QUESTION, YOU KNOW, OKAY SO YOU'RE PUTTING ALL THESE IDEAS WRITTEN BY GREAT SCHOLARS INTO THE WORLD.

WHAT DO YOU HOPE TO ACCOMPLISH?

I SAID WELL, ALL I CAN DO IS TRY TO GET PEOPLE TO READ IT AND THINK ABOUT IT.

THE ALTERNATIVE IS TO GIVE UP, AND THAT WOULD BE ABSURD.

THE WAY I SEE THIS CURRENT CRISIS IS WE'RE GONNA COME OUT OF IT EITHER THE HARD WAY OR THE EASY WAY.

AND I THINK THAT ALL OF US SHOULD JUST WORK TO LET'S GET THE COUNTRY GOING TOWARD THE EASIER DIRECTION RATHER THAN THE HARD DIRECTION.

I LOVE THIS COUNTRY SO MUCH THAT I CAN'T DO ANYTHING BUT TRY TO PUSH OUT THE IDEAS OF MUCH SMARTER PEOPLE THAN I AM INTO THE PUBLIC REALM AND HOPE THAT PEOPLE READ THEM AND GRAPPLE WITH THEM AND COME TO AN UNDERSTANDING.

THAT'S, YOU KNOW, THAT'S ENOUGH FOR ME.

BUT WE'VE GOTTA TALK ABOUT THIS STUFF.

WE CAN'T BE PASSIVE IN THE FACE OF SOME OBVIOUS PROBLEMS.

>> JEFFREY GOLDBURG, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

>> AND FINALLY, IF YOU'VE BEEN IN CENTRAL LONDON OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF DAYS, YOU MIGHT, AS I DID, WHILE WALKING MY DOG THIS WEEK RUN INTO A GROUP OF ELITE JAPANESE SUMO WRESTLERS ENJOYING A STROLL BY MANY OF LONDON'S SITES, HAVING A SNACK OUTSIDE BIG BEN.

THEY'RE HERE FOR THE GRAND SUMO TOURNAMENT AT THE ROYAL ALBERT HALL, WHICH STARTS TODAY.

AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.